Episode 4

full
Published on:

21st Aug 2025

Argonauts' Adversities: A 2025 Chronicle with Paul Woods

In this episode of PSP, host Nii Wallace-Bruce welcomes Paul Woods, CFL author and historian, to discuss the Toronto Argonauts' challenging 2025 season after their remarkable Grey Cup win in 2024. They delve into myriad issues such as player injuries, significant losses in free agency, and strategic gaps, which have led to the team’s disappointing performance.

Off the field, they also scrutinize the coaching decisions (07:22), the impact of the ownership change with Rogers taking full control of MLSE (13:24), and the future implications of the upcoming FIFA World Cup relocation (16:31). Furthermore, they explore broader CFL topics, including league management and community engagement (25:19). The episode provides a deep dive into the challenges and potential opportunities for the Argonauts and the CFL at large.

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Opening and closing music courtesy of Jeremiah Alves - "Evermore".

Transcript
PSP:

Welcome to another episode of PSP.

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I am your host, Nii Wallace Bruce and

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if you are a fan of the defending Grey

Cup Champions, the Toronto Argonauts.

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After winning the Great Cup in fairytale

fashion in:

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and downs and some sideways movements.

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So to take us through that and more,

it's friend of the show author,

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historian, reporter at large, Mr.

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Paul Woods, joins us to take us

through the season and beyond.

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Paul, how are you doing?

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Paul: I'm doing fine, nee,

thank you for having me.

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PSP: Pleasure to have you on Paul.

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And it's been a rough season.

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Let's not true code it.

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What have you seen with the

Argonauts so far in:

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Paul: They've had a big

struggle from the start.

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They've had serious injury

problems, but of course, almost

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every team goes through this.

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But they have just had, it's just

been a, an uphill battle from day one.

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They're sitting at two and eight right

now, which for the defending Gray Cup

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champions is almost un unthinkable.

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Their chances of getting to

the playoffs are extremely low.

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It would appear, even though there's

almost half a season left, it's very

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close to the point where I think

we'll be writing their off in:

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They just can't seem to put it together.

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, There's so many weaknesses on the roster.

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They were decimated in free

agency back in the winter.

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And although they'd been decimated in

previous years, they managed to overcome

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it in the other years, the last two years.

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This year they couldn't.

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They've seen too much talent leave

and not be adequately replaced.

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They've had a, their starting

quarterback has been out for the entire

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season after breaking two bones in

his leg last year in the playoffs.

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And although his replacement has played

really well, the team has just been in

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a struggle and I am not expecting it to

get much better for the rest of the way.

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PSP: Yeah, Chad Kelly being the

one who has been out for so long.

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, Where does his future, like given

that:

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He came back, got injured, got a ring with

the team when they won in his absence, is

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he the future quarterback of this team?

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Paul: It's a fair question.

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You would think so.

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I'm pretty confident in my memory

that he signed a three year extension

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to his contract in back in 2023.

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So he would be 24, 25 and 26.

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He'd be next year would be the

third year of his contract.

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He's been, he's had a pretty interesting

and somewhat star crossed career as

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the Argonaut starting quarterback.

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He sat out that first half of

last season with a suspension

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imposed by the league, and then he

came back and played quite well.

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But, and the Argos, as you said, won

the gray cup, but it was oddly enough

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without him at the end, he broke his leg

in the playoff game that preceded the

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Gray Cup and was not even at the Gray Cup

game when the Argonauts won the, their

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second championship in three seasons.

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The pre, the previous

year,:

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Spectacular season.

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He was named the CFL's

most outstanding player.

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He led the Argonauts to a record tying

16 win season only to have them suffer

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a terrible defeat in the playoffs.

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Then he goes through last year's half

a year on the suspended list and half

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a year of up and down performance, but

got the Argos into the playoffs and

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a huge win in the Eastern semifinal.

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They were contending in the Eastern final

when he got hurt and they ended up winning

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that and then winning the Great Cup.

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And then this year he hasn't

recovered fully from the injury.

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So we haven't seen him

for the first 10 games.

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And there've been mixed reports

about his health and whether or

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not he'll be back this season.

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The team seemed to be uncertain about it.

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They started them on the one game injury

list repeatedly for several games.

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Finally put 'em on the

six game injury list.

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But.

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Still sending signals that

he could play any week now.

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So who knows?

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I don't know if there's any

point playing him this year.

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If they really do if this season plays

out the way it looks like it might,

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and they have virtually no chance

of getting in the playoffs, I'm not

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sure there's any value in having him

get on the field this year when he is

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still recovering from that broken leg.

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But we'll see.

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And then I guess we'll see

if he comes back next year.

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I believe he assumes he

will, and I believe probably

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management assumes he will.

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But there's a part of me and there's

a nagging thing that says maybe he

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won't, and we'll have to wait and see.

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PSP: Okay.

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And the passing game has been spotty.

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Typically, when a team has

uncertainty, a quarterback,

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they lean on the running game.

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However, Aveeno, they did lose

Kadeem Carey in, in the off season.

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And AJ let's been long gone.

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Both, going out west to Saskatchewan.

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much of a impact has that been?

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How much of a void has that been in the

ing game for the Argonauts in:

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Paul: The Argonauts don't

have a running game this year.

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It's insane how little.

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Success they have trying to run the ball.

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That's a combination of,

I think a few factors.

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Really two primarily three.

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One is, one is that Ryan

Dinwoodie's offense tends to be

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heavily weighted towards the past

like most offenses in the CFL.

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He doesn't believe in trying to

run the ball up and down the field.

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He, I think in the past he's used

running plays to help balance the

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attack and it's worked very effectively.

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You mentioned Kadeem Carey a thousand

yard rusher last season helped

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the Argonauts win the Great Cup.

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Got cut at the end of

training camp a move.

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That, in retrospect looks

like a massive mistake.

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But having said that, I'm not sure cadet,

Kadeem or anybody could have succeeded

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behind the Argos offensive line this year.

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What was by far the strongest line in the

CFL, both in:

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of the weakest offensive lines in 2025.

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Again, some of that self-inflicted,

they traded away Dejan Allen, who,

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in my opinion, was the best offensive

lineman in the CFL the last two years.

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He was officially named the top offensive

lineman in:

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That award was won by

his teammate Ryan Hunter.

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But I think Allen actually was a

better and more dominant player.

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He got traded away in the off season

and was not adequately replaced.

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In fact, they tried to replace him by

moving Ryan Hunter, the aforementioned

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Ryan Hunter got moved out to right tackle

the position that Dejan Allen had played.

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And the offensive line had major

struggles and there were hints coming

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out of Ryan Diddy's mouth that.

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Somebody on that offensive line

came to camp too light, and they

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never said who he was talking about,

but there was speculation that

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it might have been Ryan Hunter.

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He was talking about Ryan Hunter

ended up getting hurt and he's

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been missing now for many weeks.

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And they've got a few other spots that

they just never adequately filled.

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The left tackle spot, which is the

most important position in football

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to protect a quarterback has not

been well, patrolled this year by

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a first year player, George Moore.

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There've been other guys who've been

struggling, other pretty young players

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in the interior who've been struggling.

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And so they have

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PSP: So

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Paul: in the position where they've

had games where they ran the

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ball five times for eight yards.

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That's not in one quarter.

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That's in, in an entire game.

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This put all the pressure on the passing

game led by quarterback Nick Arbuckle,

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who has had a very good, strong season.

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But when teams know that you're going

to pass almost every play, they, it

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changes how they defend against you,

and that has given the Argos some

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troubles and then the defense and the.

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Special teams have been atrocious.

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Our buckle's really, the least

of the Argonaut's worries.

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The running attack, the offensive line,

the defense and the special teams are

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all big parts of the Argonaut's worries.

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And I would put coaching in that as well.

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There've been some pretty bad coaching

mistakes, I think, along the way.

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PSP: Yeah, it's definitely a

season for the true believers

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and you being one of them.

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I see you out there , at the

field week and week out now

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you touched on special teams.

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That was a.

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Foundation of the 2024

Gray Cup winning run.

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What went wrong on special teams?

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This time around

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Paul: I think it's a combination

of personnel changes and,

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a little bit of injuries.

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The Jane Grant, who I think he ran back

four kicks last year for touchdowns

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and was a real difference maker in

terms of giving the Argonauts great

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field position all through the season.

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He missed the first four or five games

of this year with an injury, and he

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hasn't quite found his old form, he

said, one runback for a touchdown.

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He's had a couple of near misses.

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But they lost a bunch

of their backup players.

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The backups tend to be

important on special teams.

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They, Daniel Aba Boyer, who was a backup

running back with the Argos for the

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past three seasons and didn't really

see much action on offense, but was an

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incredibly important player on special

teams, on kick returns and kick coverage.

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He left in free agency to go to Ottawa.

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He's been missed.

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Jack Casar, a backup linebacker

whose primary function is to be the

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leader of the special teams, has

been injured for much of this year.

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And when he came back a couple of games

ago, he didn't make the impact that maybe

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we thought he might, perhaps he's still

dealing with an injury and there's been

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a lot of that type of turnover at the

what you, what people would traditionally

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call the bottom part of the roster.

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I think it's actually a bit of a

misnomer because although we think of

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starters as people who start the game

on offense and defense, there are also

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guys whose primary, if not only job

is to play special teams and they're

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effectively starters on special teams.

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And the Argos have got a whole.

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Lot of different guys in those

roles than they had last year.

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They've also had not the kind of

year from their punter John Haggerty

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that they've had in the past.

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He has been inconsistent and

has sometimes placed his punts

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in places where they can be.

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Caught and run back for a touchdown.

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I think the a have given up four kick

return touchdowns this season, including

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a couple of just backbreaking ones at in

terribly important parts late in games.

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Their field goal kicker, Liam

higher LA who has been as good

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or better than ever, but on the

kick coverage and on kick returns.

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They have been well below the standard

that they set the last three seasons.

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And again, combination of personnel,

maybe some coaching, but a lot of it

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I think is personnel and some frankly

disappointing punting from John Haggerty.

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PSP: Mm.

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Yeah.

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And that's so important for field position

because a weak punt is just going to, not

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flipping the field, you're just giving

a free, a free play to the opposition.

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And you're putting the defense under

pressure straight away, so I definitely

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get what you're saying there with punts.

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Paul: What we've seen from Haggerty a

bit this year is that he was incredibly

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good in the past at placing the ball.

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The ball would come down between the

numbers on the field and the sideline

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way off to one side or the other.

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So the returner is basically

boxed in this year.

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He is had some that have come down in

the middle of the field and that gives

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the returners so much opportunity to

pick lanes and it mean means that the

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coverage team has to cover far wider

section of the field than they would if

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they were all converging into one corner.

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And that's been some of a couple

of the punt return touchdowns have

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been because of that, because of

poor ball placement by Haggerty.

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And I don't wanna pick too much on him.

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He's still a very good punter.

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And I'd like to think he's just going

through a rough patch and he will be

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fine for a long productive career.

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But it has been a problem.

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And when I see a ball, when I see a punt

and it's coming down to, in the middle of

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the field, I'm thinking, uhoh, here we go.

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And it's come, it's happened

that way a few times.

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PSP: The team's gonna struggle.

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The team is gonna struggle when

those things are happening.

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You did mention the coach briefly,

Witty, and I get the sense that

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perhaps his in-game decision making

as not been as sharp as it in:

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Is he in any danger in 2025

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Paul: I don't think you, we could say

that Ryan Dinwoody is un is in any danger.

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He is, he actually has a position

of quite a bit of authority within

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the Argos football operations.

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Pinball Clemens is the general manager.

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But not a general manager in the

traditional sense that he doesn't,

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he's not a player recruiter.

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He's not negotiating the contracts.

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He leaves those responsibilities to

a combination of Ryan Dinwitty and

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John Murphy, who's the assistant gm.

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And I think real realistically, I think

Ryan Dinwoody wields as much or more power

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than anybody in that organization football

wise, other than pinball, Clemens, and

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arguably in some ways more than pinball

Clemens because he is more directly

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involved in recruitment and so on.

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He's had a very strong first four

years as coach 21, 22, 23, and 24.

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The Argos finished

first place three times.

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Won two great cups, made the

Eastern final all four years.

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Had a 16 win season.

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He's had a spectacular first

four years as head coach despite.

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Annoying fans at times with

some of his decision making.

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But overall you can't

really criticize his record.

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He's got the, he's got the

right to to have a bad year

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and still stay in the role.

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And I fully expect he will be

the head coach next year unless

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something really extraordinary

happens between now and next season.

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But but I think he should

bear some responsibility.

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He's, he is twice.

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Gone on, on record after disappointing

losses as ripping his, some of his team

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without naming names but making taring

more than one player with the same brush.

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He's threatened that, his heads

are going to roll, and then

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heads didn't exactly roll.

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So some of the, I think the pressure

has, I think he's been feeling the

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pressure, let's put it that way.

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PSP: Okay.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Watch that space.

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At the same time, the trajectory

of the Agonals in recent years has

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been, have a bad season, then the

following season win the Great Cup.

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So perhaps this bodes well for 2026.

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Well we'll see.

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We shall see.

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You're listening to PSP with myself, Neil

Wallace, Bruce, and our guest Paul Woods.

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He's the author of multiple books

on Argonauts, and he has another

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book coming out very shortly, but

you'll have to stay tuned for that.

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stick with the, local team here

in Toronto, the, the former rowing

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club, actually the current rowing

club that evolved into a football

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club, the Toronto Argonauts.

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had a change of ownership Rogers.

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Assumed full control of Maple leaf sports

and enterprises to vying out bell's share.

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So it's effectively Rogers

owning the Argonauts and other

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entities, including Toronto FC

Raptors, and Toronto Maple Leaf.

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Now Paul, I know we've talked about

this in the past, in the lead up to

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this, this closure of transaction.

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How do you see things now that Rogers

is in full control the Argonauts?

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Paul: As an Argo fan, I'm very worried.

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I believe the, we're seeing signs

that they are not caring a hell

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of a lot about the Argonauts.

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I understand intellectually why that is.

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They.

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They control the Raptors who according to

Forbes, are valued at something like $4.4

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billion and they control the maple

Leaf, who according to Forbes

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are valued at something like $3.8

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billion.

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And then they've got

TFC and the Argonauts.

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And the Argonauts don't

have much enterprise value.

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But they have done some things

that I don't like as a fan.

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I certainly, the attendance has not

been good strong this year, despite

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winning the Great Cup last year.

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For the second time in three years,

attendance has been poor, although we are

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expecting a big crowd this coming week

coinciding with the game being played at

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the CNE, the Canadian National Exhibition.

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But I don't know that Rogers is doing

enough to promote the brand and to

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support the Argonauts management

in their endeavors to try to regain

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somewhat of a foothold in this very

crowded sports marketplace in Toronto.

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We, I honestly, I don't know that Rogers

intends to keep the Argonauts, although I

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don't know if a buyer could even be found.

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But it wouldn't surprise me if they

would be actively looking for a buyer

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and just ready to wash their hands of

the Argonauts, which would not be a

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great situation because Rogers slash

mlse effectively controls the stadium.

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BMO.

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Even though it's a city of Toronto

property the Argos have had problems

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in the past when they couldn't control

their venue when they were the last

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few years, when they were in what's

now the Rogers Center was then Skydome.

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They had terrible choice of dates.

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They got evicted from the stadium

for four games in:

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of Blue Jay's playoff run.

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All kinds of problems

like that in the past.

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So having them as part of MLSE seemed

like a good thing, for the six or seven

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years since MLSE acquired ownership of

the Argonauts, even though I didn't, I

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don't know if they were doing enough to

really promote the enterprise but now that

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Rogers has full control of it and Bell

is effectively out, and Bell, of course,

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has the rights to all CFL games on TSN.

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Rogers doesn't seem to care much

about the CFL as a sports property.

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What the long-term future is, I don't

know, but I am worried about it.

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As an Argo fan, I'm very worried that

this is the beginning of what could be

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a real downward slope, and it's not.

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We're already starting

and not a great spot.

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When you're getting 13,000 people to

some of the games where's this gonna go?

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I don't know, but I don't feel

very good about things right now.

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PSP: It is telling that when you turn on

Roger's main sports channel on the radio,

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they have advertisements for Toronto Sea.

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But I don't hear similar

advertisements for IOTs is telling.

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I'll leave it at that.

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Now, there's 2026 is gonna be a

transformative year for aaus because as

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you said, they, they've had stadium issues

in the past, and that's gonna come again

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when the FI World Cup comes to town.

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Now in, in the months of June and July,

the astronauts are effectively been

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told to go on the road or to find.

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Elsewhere to play, and there was

an announcement from the CFL that

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, Agnos would effectively play home

games on the road, Saskatchewan,

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Winnipeg, other locations.

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Given that the Argonauts have previously

played in the Atlantic, you think this

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is a missed opportunity from the league?

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Paul: Sure.

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It's a missed opportunity in

the sense that they could have.

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Maybe try to build the Argonaut brand in

Southern Ontario where there's potential

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to to get new fans who might actually

come and buy tickets to future games.

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They could have played, they

could have played their games.

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In, in some people have suggested

at York University, some have

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suggested University of Guelph.

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Some have suggested Western University

in London, or even Queens University

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in Kingston could have been.

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Venues that could have hosted

those games and you would've

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at least had a chance to get.

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Actual Argonauts fans there as

well as maybe build up some new

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interest in those communities.

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This is actually, when I talked

about Rogers doing some things

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that, that I don't feel comfortable

with, this is the biggest one.

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Putting home games, home games in

Regina, Winnipeg and Hamilton is an

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absolute slap against Argonauts fans,

and it's an absolute slap against

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the Argonauts football operation.

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You there's no chance that the football

side of that operation wanted to

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go and play a home game in Winnipeg

before 30,000 Blue Bomber fans.

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And to make two trips to Winnipeg

and two trips to Regina next year.

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And then to go and play a home

game, Home game in Hamilton.

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Now we will actually as seasons

ticket holders, apparently we will

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be given tickets to the ham, the game

in Hamilton as part of our package.

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And , I don't know how the Tigercat

are gonna sell that game to their

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own fan base, but I fully expect

Argonaut's fans will be outnumbered

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in Hamilton for that home game.

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And Argonaut's fans will be vastly

outnumbered in Regina and Winnipeg.

367

:

While Rogers enjoys the

financial proceeds from putting.

368

:

Putting those games in stadiums

that do a better job of selling

369

:

tickets than they do themselves.

370

:

So if Winnipeg is able to sell 30,000 FA

30,000 tickets for an extra home game for

371

:

the blue bombers and the Argos, walk away

with those proceeds, Rogers will be happy.

372

:

Yeah.

373

:

Argonauts fans won't be happy

and Argonauts players and

374

:

coaches won't be happy about it.

375

:

And it, to me, having to play six

home games and 12 road games next

376

:

season is, it's almost unconscionable

to give the team that much of a

377

:

handicap, but that's what they've done.

378

:

And so we're there and we're

gonna go forward and deal with it.

379

:

I've obviously I'm one

of, I think the entire.

380

:

A collective of diehard Argo

fans are up in arms over this,

381

:

but it won't make a difference.

382

:

The decision has been made.

383

:

They will not be moving those games

to Guelph or Laurier or Western or

384

:

Queens or York or anywhere else.

385

:

And the Argonauts not only are gonna

be, not able to play home games in

386

:

June and July, they won't even be

able to have their home locker room.

387

:

They won't have their offices.

388

:

They are gonna be banished from the

entire premises of BMO field for at

389

:

least 60 days, as far as I can tell.

390

:

They're gonna have to set

up shop somewhere else.

391

:

I don't know if it's

gonna be a high school.

392

:

I have no idea how they're gonna

do it, but it's a gigantic handicap

393

:

for the team going into 2026.

394

:

And one that.

395

:

PSP: One,

396

:

Paul: with what the BC lines

are gonna be going through.

397

:

They're also being evicted

from their home stadium.

398

:

Only two games rather than the three

that the Argonauts are gonna miss.

399

:

And their owner has gone on

record of saying, we're gonna play

400

:

these games in British Columbia.

401

:

And it looks like he's gonna spend

some money to, to build up temporary

402

:

stadiums for them to play in and to

be playing before BC Lions fans, the

403

:

organizer are gonna be playing before.

404

:

30,000 Saskatchewan Rough Riders,

fans, and 30,000 Winnipeg Blue Bomber

405

:

fans who are gonna be enjoying the

fact that they get an extra home game.

406

:

It's just, it's unconscionable.

407

:

I.

408

:

PSP: Yeah, absolutely.

409

:

It's for three games.

410

:

That's, that's a lot.

411

:

That's a big chunk of the season.

412

:

Three, three home games.

413

:

I could see it if it was one home

game, but three home games in.

414

:

One major rival and then two key

rivals in the other conference.

415

:

Paul: those are long distance.

416

:

Travel, which is hard on the players.

417

:

And the context of this is this.

418

:

The, the Argonauts fans have endured

this type of abuse for years.

419

:

We've, whenever there's been a

touchdown Atlantic, it's been the

420

:

Argos giving up a home game to go

and play out in the East Coast.

421

:

In 2015, we gave up four home games.

422

:

One, it was played in Fort McMurray,

two were played in Hamilton, one

423

:

was played in Ottawa against Ottawa.

424

:

This type of nonsense that we've had to

put up with where everybody, every other.

425

:

Season ticket holder of every other

team in this league knows that they're

426

:

gonna get nine home games to get, to

go to and know where they're gonna sit.

427

:

We've had years where we've had eight,

we've had years where we've had five.

428

:

We just, we take it and

take it and take it.

429

:

And it really annoys the hell out of me.

430

:

And I think it's fair to say it

annoys the hell out of almost every

431

:

season ticket holder of the Argonaut.

432

:

PSP: Hmm.

433

:

So I guess, yeah, the, the core of

the fans that they're hoping for.

434

:

Someone to come in, who cares about

the team to buy the team of MLSC and.

435

:

Make it what it should

436

:

Paul: Set.

437

:

PSP: to make it

438

:

Paul: That would be a dream

scenario if you could actually

439

:

find someone with passion for it.

440

:

What we've seen from the owner

of the BC Lions, Amar, Doman.

441

:

You need somebody with a lot of

money because this is definitely

442

:

a money losing proposition.

443

:

But the, my worry would be that even

if you found someone like that, would

444

:

they have enough control over their,

over the stadium and the dates that they

445

:

get in that stadium that we wouldn't

go back to the days of Rogers Center

446

:

slash skydome, where sometimes Argos

were stuck with the playing a game on a

447

:

Tuesday night because that was the only

date Rogers made available for them.

448

:

I don't know if a sugar daddy

who loved the Argos emerged.

449

:

To buy the team and was willing

to spend, and lose, great.

450

:

But are we still gonna be stuck with

being third class citizens in our

451

:

own facility, et cetera, et cetera.

452

:

All to be determined over time.

453

:

We'll see.

454

:

I honestly don't know that we

could even find such a sugar daddy.

455

:

It's, I don't think there's any prospect

of the Argonauts being profitable in the

456

:

foreseeable future, and I don't think

there's any prospect of the enterprise

457

:

value appreciating enough that you could

be willing to take the losses because you

458

:

could, that later on you could sell the

franchise and make a good buck from it.

459

:

So it's a, it's a.

460

:

It's a cycle that we've been in

for almost 40 years now in a way.

461

:

And there, obviously there've been

a variety of owners over the 40

462

:

years, and some have tried more than

others, and some have talked a good

463

:

game and some have actually maybe

even played a good game for a while.

464

:

But the slow, steady erosion of interest

in this marketplace has continued.

465

:

And now we're down to this hardcore

of maybe 12,000 really serious,

466

:

hardcore fans who who show up

every game and love the team.

467

:

And then you get, maybe you can get

another 4,000 casuals in the building.

468

:

If the team does a good job of selling

tickets this week, we may get 10,000

469

:

more casuals because CNE is here and

every Argo ticket gets you into the CNE.

470

:

So it could be a really fun day.

471

:

But I don't know what the long term

play is here to get this team back

472

:

to being 20,000 plus every game and

actually turning an operating profit.

473

:

I'd love to think it could

happen, but I'm dubious.

474

:

PSP: You know, as a, as

a historian for the team.

475

:

What about someone like

Larry Tenenbaum, who's also

476

:

effectively exited the MLC game?

477

:

He's.

478

:

He has his own entity, KMA Sports,

which is setting up the Toronto

479

:

Tempo to enter the WNVA in 2026.

480

:

What was his appetite like for the

Argos when he was part of MLSC?

481

:

Do you know?

482

:

Paul: I'd never spoken to Larry

myself, but by all accounts he

483

:

genuinely does like the team and he

would, and he seemed happy to be.

484

:

It's front person.

485

:

His, he was like the, he was the minority

owner within the MLSE structure, but he

486

:

was the defacto president of the team.

487

:

The defacto chair, not the president,

but he was, it was like his baby.

488

:

And I think he was, in that sense,

I think it was pretty helpful.

489

:

I would love him to step

in and get involved again.

490

:

But I have to assume he's going

to be focusing on the temple.

491

:

The new women's basketball team that

will be starting up operations I

492

:

would imagine that's his focal point

and not, nor why wouldn't it be?

493

:

Women's sports are growing.

494

:

And the value of the sports women's

sports franchises is growing.

495

:

I think he's, he figures he's bought, he's

brought in something that's going to make

496

:

him a lot of money in the Toronto tempo.

497

:

So how much appetite will he have to then?

498

:

See the Argos continue to

struggle along and lose money.

499

:

Maybe the money he makes from

the tempo would be, it would

500

:

be fun money that he could then

burn down the drain on the Argos.

501

:

But I don't know.

502

:

I would love it if he was, if he

became the sole owner of the Argonauts,

503

:

that'd be a, that'd be a happy day.

504

:

But I would still, my skepticism

wouldn't go away completely.

505

:

PSP: Understood.

506

:

Now your skepticism may not go away when

we talk about another gentleman, the

507

:

current commissioner of the CFL Stuart

Johnston, who is formerly of Bell Media.

508

:

been in the role for

part of the season now.

509

:

How is he going as commissioner?

510

:

Paul: I think it's too

early to really rate him.

511

:

I, so far so good.

512

:

I think he's, I think he has.

513

:

He's come across well in

his few public offerings.

514

:

His initial news conference,

he's gone on TSNA few times.

515

:

He's he's had a few media

availabilities around the league as

516

:

he's traveled around from city to city.

517

:

I think he's I think he's off to a

promising start, but one must never forget

518

:

that the commissioner of the Canadian

Football League, like any commissioner.

519

:

In any sports is answerable

to the owners of the league.

520

:

And so Stewart Johnston will do what

the league's owners want him to do.

521

:

Just as Randy Ambrozy did that.

522

:

I think Ambrozy tried to push the envelope

in a few ways and the owners gave him

523

:

some leeway to do it, and in some cases

it might have been abject failures.

524

:

Stewart's been around the league long

enough because of his background as

525

:

a, as an executive at TSN, that he

knows its inner workings quite well.

526

:

So I think we can say that he's

off to a promising start and, we'll

527

:

see over time how he performs.

528

:

I think it's a challenging job.

529

:

I think getting the owners

of nine separate franchises.

530

:

To all be unified and together on,

on what they want to achieve and

531

:

how they want to achieve it is a

challenge, particularly when you've

532

:

got different types of ownership.

533

:

You've got big conglomerates like

MLSE and the Calgary Ownership group.

534

:

You've got rich individuals like

like in BC and Edmonton and Montreal.

535

:

You've got community owned

franchises in Winnipeg and Regina.

536

:

There's a real mishmash of ownership

structures and that means that it

537

:

was a mishmash of objectives and

ways of achieving those objectives.

538

:

What's good for the Winnipeg blue

Bombers in their market is maybe

539

:

completely irrelevant to the Toronto

Argonauts in this market and vice versa.

540

:

So to try to navigate that,

it's the old cliche of, it's

541

:

like herding cats, I think.

542

:

I think it's a tough.

543

:

Tough challenge for any commissioner

in this league, and it's been that way

544

:

going back to probably the late 1970s,

early:

545

:

I believe it was in 84, 85, I think that

was the last time we had an all powerful

546

:

commissioner who really pushed the league

in the direction that he wanted to.

547

:

Since then, it's been the league pushing

the commissioner in the direction that

548

:

they want to, and sometimes oftentimes

they can't even agree amongst themselves

549

:

what they want the commissioner to do.

550

:

PSP: Hmm.

551

:

Yeah.

552

:

And that doesn't help anyone when

you're out a bit of an impulse.

553

:

Now, Johnson, you said, was an executive

at TSN, I believe he's from Toronto.

554

:

Would you say that he understands

the importance of having the CFO

555

:

represented in the city of Toronto?

556

:

Paul: Oh, I'm sure that's true.

557

:

I'm sure he would.

558

:

This is one of those bizarre.

559

:

I don't know what bizarre paradoxes

is that the Argonauts have the worst

560

:

attendance in the CFL and have, and

that has been the case for many years.

561

:

And yet they're incredibly

important to the television product.

562

:

People don't pay money to go to Argonauts

games, but they watch them on tv.

563

:

And the thought of a Canadian football

league without a Toronto franchise,

564

:

without the Toronto Argonauts franchise.

565

:

Would, it would instantly devalue

the revenue coming into the league

566

:

from the television contract and from

marketing and sponsorships in general.

567

:

Johnston as a guy who's been part of TSN

for so long will completely understand

568

:

that it's, in many ways it's why there's,

there hasn't been felt like a huge

569

:

impetus to solve the Toronto problem.

570

:

Part of it was, they got what looked

like stable ownership when initially.

571

:

Tannin Baum's Group, Kilmer and Bell

took ownership away from David Braley

572

:

and then it moved into the MLSE stable.

573

:

After that, it's okay, what could

be better than being owned by the

574

:

richest sports conglomerate in, in

the, in Canada and one of the richest

575

:

sports conglomerates in the world?

576

:

So I think people have

just shrugged it off.

577

:

Okay, who cares if the Argo

Argonauts draw 13,000 people?

578

:

Our ratings are good, 600,000 people,

700,000 people, whatever it is, watch.

579

:

Watch CFL games and a big chunk

of those are in southern Ontario.

580

:

It's fine.

581

:

But I think probably it would be

better for the league as I think.

582

:

I don't think there's any doubt it would

be better for the league if the Argonauts

583

:

were a hot ticket in Toronto and were much

more top of mind among Torontonians than

584

:

they are, that would help raise the value

of the entire Canadian football brand.

585

:

PSP: Football

586

:

Paul: wouldn't hurt to to have it

raised because it's up against, the

587

:

NFL as well as hockey and basketball.

588

:

And so what, whether Stewart can do

anything about that, I don't know.

589

:

PSP: I don't know.

590

:

Paul: could he, I think,

frankly, I think he know.

591

:

I would argue that the TSN broadcasts

had been stale for a number of

592

:

years and that was on his watch.

593

:

Did he think they were stale or

was it a case where he knew they

594

:

were stale, but there was no money

to put in to to jazz it up because

595

:

sponsorships would only bringing in

whatever sponsorships were bringing in.

596

:

I don't know.

597

:

I think the TF the CFL could

definitely be a better television

598

:

product than it is now.

599

:

There've been some improvements this year.

600

:

Since he left and became commissioner.

601

:

I'm not linking the two at all.

602

:

But he would certainly know that.

603

:

You can't have a national venture with

national sponsors without having a stake

604

:

in the biggest market in the country.

605

:

And there've been fans over the years who

said, just move the Argonauts to Atlantic

606

:

Canada or fold them or do whatever.

607

:

Who cares?

608

:

CFL fans that say that if

that ever were to happen.

609

:

The value of that TV contract would

be a fraction of what it is now.

610

:

The national sponsors that are

there, some of them would walk away.

611

:

You would gradually end up with a

league that would probably be based

612

:

in four cities in Western Canada.

613

:

And that's it.

614

:

I think

615

:

that's the doomsday let's not go there.

616

:

PSP: Let's not go there.

617

:

Let's.

618

:

let's yeah, let's leave that one

619

:

Paul: We're far from that.

620

:

The league's actually doing pretty well.

621

:

The, the attendance is in a good

spot in every market except Toronto,

622

:

Calgary is a bit of a struggle

actually, that to be fair they've

623

:

got the worst stadium, the oldest

and the worst stadium in the league.

624

:

And they've had struggles and it's

interesting that they're also owned by a.

625

:

A sports conglomerate that has a

hockey team as well, and which probably

626

:

takes it more of its attention.

627

:

So those are the two struggle

areas, but in, in pretty well

628

:

everywhere other city in the country.

629

:

I think that, I think the

CFL's in very good shape.

630

:

We haven't seen TV ratings this year.

631

:

They seem to have become private

this year for the first time in a

632

:

long time, but I have a little doubt

that the ratings have been good.

633

:

The television does, the

entertainment value of the games

634

:

has been really good this year.

635

:

There was a couple of weeks

ago the all four games were

636

:

just insanely entertaining.

637

:

PSP: Okay.

638

:

All right.

639

:

Now what about, is outta left field,

the gray cuff this year, could we

640

:

see Drake doing the halftime show?

641

:

Paul: Maybe Drake's now had in such

trouble with, after his beef with Kendrick

642

:

Lamar that he'd actually want to do it.

643

:

I don't tend to think so.

644

:

It's the game's in Winnipeg.

645

:

I think there was always this

desire among some CFL fans.

646

:

And why doesn't MLSE just tell

Drake to to talk up the Argos,

647

:

the way he talked up the raptors?

648

:

Drake was a much bigger star than

the CFL and the Argos, and he

649

:

didn't need the Argos of the CFL.

650

:

He has now put his stamp of

approval on some clothing.

651

:

His own clothing apparel line, I

guess now has some CFL branded stuff.

652

:

But no, I don't think Drake's

gonna be doing the halftime show.

653

:

We'll find out who it is, but

I'd be stunned if it was Drake.

654

:

It would be a big deal for the CFL if it

was but I don't think that's gonna happen.

655

:

PSP: Okay.

656

:

Alright, well I'll I throw

that out there and see.

657

:

Paul: We can wish, I suppose I, I'm not

a big fan of Drake or Kenrick Lamar,

658

:

myself, but it would bring a lot of

eyeballs to the product if he were, if he

659

:

somehow ended up being there at halftime.

660

:

PSP: Absolutely, absolutely.

661

:

They'll be quite the

ratings bonanza in any case.

662

:

Paul it's been a pleasure to have

you on to chat about all things CFL.

663

:

We went all the way around the league.

664

:

We did pretty well for 40 minutes.

665

:

Where can we find you on

social media and elsewhere?

666

:

Paul: Yeah, the I'm still on the service

formerly known as Twitter, although I

667

:

don't spend much time on it anymore,

but I'm there and on Blue Sky at.

668

:

At PX W 13.

669

:

If anybody ever wants to get in touch

with me directly, I'm happy to receive

670

:

emails at Paul Woods thirteen@gmail.com.

671

:

I I don't have, I don't have a

huge social media presence at the

672

:

moment, and maybe I'll have to ramp

that up if, and when my next book.

673

:

Gets, gets done and gets released.

674

:

But I'm certainly happy to

talk to fans at any point.

675

:

And if anybody who ever wants to get

a copy of my first two books about

676

:

the Argonauts, they could reach out to

me directly and we can work that out.

677

:

PSP: Fantastic.

678

:

And there's definitely good reads.

679

:

You'll definitely feel a lot smarter after

reading both books, so I highly recommend.

680

:

In any case, I've been your

host, ne Wallace Spruce, and this

681

:

has been another episode PSP.

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About the Podcast

Pro Sports Podcasters
No Sport Left Behind
The Pro Sports Podcasters is hosted by Nii Wallace-Bruce, and Justen Williams. On this podcast there is no sport too big, or too small for us to cover. You'll learn something every episode!

#NoSportLeftBehind

Our guests include the top athletes in their sport, coaches, sports broadcasters, sports agents, league administrators, and dedicated fans. We cover every sport from every angle, and provide perspectives that other podcasts ignore. Each host has expert knowledge in a number of sports. So when the opportunity arises to educate our audience, we take every opportunity.

Our hosts Nii Wallace-Bruce, and Justen Williams have all spent time in front of the camera as well. Having appeared in commercials, dramatic roles, music videos, public events, and Live performances. The Pro Sports Podcasters are more than the voices you have come to recognize hearing twice a week.

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